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Jan 15, 2021

How Uber scaled NYC

Adam Alfandary
Managing Director at GetYourGuide, Former Head of Growth Northeast at Uber

Adam is the GM of the Americas for GetYourGuide, the leading global marketplace for travel experiences. Before GetYourGuide, Adam held a number of leadership positions at Uber, building the New York business from startup to profitability. Prior to Uber, Adam was an ed-tech product manager, worked on digital transformation for a broadcast media network, and tried to be a radio journalist. You can follow him on LinkedIn.

[Apologies for spelling mistakes as the transcript is machine generated]

0:44   Who is Adam?

5:12   The two phases of Uber NYC's growth

6:49   How Uber convinced commercial drivers to drive for Uber

10:11   Operations at Uber NYC

11:52   Challenges with ops at Uber NYC

12:52   Uber NYC was at one point run on an Excel sheet!

14:49   Why Uber didn't build out internal tooling for Uber NYC

15:45   Ops around getting non-commercial drivers commercially certified

18:22   The processes there

22:10   Internal tools built

22:59   Key KPIs

25:12   How Adam defined ops

29:58   How Uber NYC would've used Macro

31:14   Advice for folks considering a career in ops

32:46   How to reach Adam on LinkedIn

Derrick: [00:00:27] Hey, Adam, how are you doing?

Adam: [00:00:32] Well, uh, I have a newborn at home, so I'm intermittently operating on having no time. It's a little and having all the time in the world.

Derrick: [00:00:41] Congrats on the the newborn.

Adam: [00:00:43] Thank you.

Derrick: [00:00:44] Cool. Let's jump into Into the podcast.

The first question we have, which we ask every guest is just to tell us a little bit about who they are, their story. And so  who is Adam? And what is your story?

Adam: [00:00:56] Sure. Oh man.  I am British living in theU S have been here for 15 years. First came over. I took a year off after high school traveled a bit, ended up in in Massachusetts.

My, my initial plan was to return to England and study history in England. In England, you have to apply to a department of a university. So I applied to the history department and I wanted to convince the admissions board that I was passionate about history. So I did a sort of internship. At a historical society in Massachusetts, just to prove my love of history.

I ended up spending the entire internship, taking pictures of colonial spoons and cataloging them in an MS DOS-based sort of cataloging system which was one of the most tedious things I've ever done. But as a result, I audited a class at the local university which was Amhest College, loved the applied, got in.

And have been in the U S ever since. So I never intended to be here. But and I ended up actually never taking a single history class. So my life brought me here and I've been working in tech pretty much my entire career. Amazing.

Derrick: [00:02:04] And then when you graduated from college, did you have any expectations on what you were going to do and what your life could have looked like 50 years going forward?

Adam: [00:02:11] No, not really. What I didn't realize about going to college in the U S is that when I graduated from visa perspective, my job had to be directly related to my field of study.

So as a double major in liberal arts, French literature andAfrican-American studies degree, that was. Somewhat difficult. I spent the early part of my career in radio from radio. I went into ad tech  working for a company that was basically likeRosetta stone for kids in foreign language.

Learning for young children started off in an e-com role there and then move into a PM role. And, radio has always been a passion of mine and journalism this was, the beginnings of the digital revolution. SpotifyPandora was Mason. So like radio was just undergoing a bit of a sea change.

I never expected to end up like in tech I always thought I'd do something more humanities focused, I think the path any really becomes clear when you look backwards. Not really when you're planning towards.

Derrick: [00:03:10] Yeah. Yeah, for sure. But you did have a radio show while you were in college and an artist, is that right?

Adam: [00:03:15] I did. Yeah. I had a few radio shows. I had a radio show in the college station, which was like a music show that I did with a friend.

But I also I worked for the local NPR station. So doing local news reporting tomato blights or tomato appliances and various other.Incredibly uninteresting local news stories.

Derrick: [00:03:36] So you went from being a local radio type crew to to eventually working atUber.

Adam: [00:03:42] Yeah. Yeah. So the thread was like radio journalism into , doing digital strategy for a large commercial radio network. And Matt took me on the direction of kind of the digital work and eventually tech. So yeah, I joined late 2013.It was one of the first people in the New York office focused on operations.

So operations basically meant all things supply and supply, and the drivers were the chief obstacles. The product was super viral on the writer side. But especially in a market like new Oak, which is where I was operating. We didn't have the, the ride sharing model that the rest of the country did.

The rest of the U S got clean background check clean driver's license and a car. You submit some information social security number and a background check run, and you can start driving. In New York city the entire industry is regulated by a very powerful agency known as the taxi and limousine commission.

And so we basically operate within that structure. Black car lottery, we had to sit on top of the existing regulation. So my job was growth.Growth, Uber was really an operational challenge rather than a pure marketing challenge. And that's really what I spent. The majority of my career we've been doing a building is the growth team and the growth strategy for New York City and then eventually expansion strategy and Connecticut and New Jersey, New York State those markets, which were more of a traditional ride sharing model.

Derrick: [00:05:12] Got it. And just to back up a little bit, so when you first joined Uber, how big was the New York city office and how many drivers were on the platform?

Adam: [00:05:24] 1,500 drivers, which, at the time seemed huge. But in my tenure there, we went from 1500 to over 70,000. I think there were two phases of Uber's growth, right?

One was how do we penetrate this existing taxi industry and black car industry and convince taxi drivers to give up the yellow taxi convince delivery drivers to start driving with Uber. And that was, that was a lot of work and like a big part of our strategy. We did it so well that we actually ran out some drivers in New York city after awhile.

So I was doing some planning for kind of end of year planning. So then next year, and I realized that  there weren't enough licensed drivers in NewYork city to meet our trip goals for the coming year. So I pitched this idea of a driver's school drive a factory to my boss at the time.

And we built this Basically program where we took people from retail, from construction, from security jobs, who've never driven professionally before. And we got them licensed through this crazy arduous and expensive six month licensing process as quickly and inexpensively as possible to them just to create new supply in the city

Derrick: [00:06:37] Got it. And so to break those down, those two sections down, even further. When you were going through the first phase, in terms of convincing the existing commercial drivers to drive for Uber, what was the selling point? Why did commercial drivers want to drive for Uber and how did you convince them?

How did you recruit them?

Adam: [00:06:55] Yeah, I think the convince and recruit were two different pieces. So I'll talk about the convince first. I think one of the big selling points for taxi drivers was that there was no dispatcher, right? So in a traditional black house service,EV the dispatcher, the guy who picks up the phone and actually.

Matches customers with drivers is a human being or several human beings. And unfortunately there was a culture of, the dispatcher had favorites, the dispatcher, we got some gifts there. We got some kickbacks and a lot of people really wanted to leave what they considered to be a very. Corrupt and nepotistic way of doing business.

And so the beauty of Uber was closest car, closest driver, closest passenger, like closest to you. Basket gets a trip. There's no favoritism and there isn't a dispatcher and the earnings are really good as well. I think, yes, the price of an Uber is lower for a consumer than it is of taking a black car.

If you take dial seven to the airport, it's going to cost you more than taking an Uber to the airport. But because Uber's utilization was so high drivers, even though they were making less on every trip they weren't sitting around for an hour and a half reading the newspaper before they got their next gig.

So they were actually making more per hour and making more money over an eight or 10 hour shift than if they're driving one of those traditional car companies. So that was really our selling points. We had a different selling point for yellow taxi drivers like driving the yellow taxi is in New York City is like probably one of the most stressful things you can do as a 12 hour shift.

You pay $120 up front you're in the whole 120 bucks and you have to make that money back and clear that threshold before you. Starting. So that's why, like every time you get into yellow cab, like the driver is like basically a madman because they're just like so stressed out. We, for the yellow taxi drivers, we were promoting flexibility, Uber around your life and your schedule rather than having to get to some godforsaken taxi, dispatch law in the middle of, Queens at five in the morning.

Maybe they'll have a taxi for you, maybe they don't. And then you have to bring it back by 5:00 PM. So you lose an hour shoulder on either end. And then you just have to work like crazy to make that money. So those are the selling points. And then the recruiting strategy was based around that.

In, in major markets like San Francisco, Boston, your average Uber driver was gonna be. Someone who's doing this part-time to earn some extra income. In New York city, it's a full-time job. And it was mostly done by ESL drivers , recent immigrants to the country people in their forties to sixties often instead of in their twenties.

The traditional sort of bread and butter, Facebook ads, display just general performance marketing, wasn't really applicable for our market. So we cut all of that way back when I joined and started really focusing on houses, home on radio foreign language, radio English language, radio The backs of buses because drivers sitting in traffic and he's not going to look at the side of the bus, he's going to look at the back.

We would like plus the areas around these taxi, dispatch lots with Uber ads and really getting like old school, but also like very disciplined about the way we recruited, combining that with a very generous referral strategy, we were able to really burn through a lot of that low hanging fruit very quickly.

Derrick: [00:10:11] Got it. Got it. And then so it sounds like operations in. In that first instance of. Onboarding or recruiting the commercial drivers was first letting them know that Uber is an option, making them interested, getting them into the funnel and then building a system that allows them to get onboard onto the Uber platform as fast as possible.

Adam: [00:10:33] Getting them into the funnel was the easy part, getting them through the funnel was the difficult part because everything had to be done through the taxi and limousine commission. And it was really. Pen and paper and physical drop-offs.So if you want to switch from, Carmel or dial seven or one of these traditional black car companies to Uber, you have to come to the Uber office, fill out a bunch of paperwork, take that paperwork to the taxi and limousine commission.

The taxi and limousine commission has to process it. You got a physical sticker, you've got to put it in your car. You've got to go and get the car inspected. So for me, and for Uber, New York operationalizing, that was the difficult part. We had no shortage eventually of volume at the top of the funnel, converting that in a seamless and frictionless way.

As a digital and as a tech company that had to operate with pen and paper, that was that's where the magic happened to me is turning this very archaic brick and mortar experience into something digital and marrying the physical requirements of go to this parking lot, go to this car dealership, go to the DMV physically marrying that with The city databases with the physical paperwork that we had to fill out with our own internal tools.

So that was the hard bit.

Derrick: [00:11:52] What types of. Products, as you develop in order to ensure that people didn't fall off the funnel, I'm assuming one of the reasons why people might've fell off with simply just because this process just has so many steps and it was complicated and it took a while.

And so  life happen and they just, they forgot about the fact that they're supposed to get onboard onto grouper. Is that a big problem?

Adam: [00:12:14] Yeah, I that's part of it. It's the, it's the. This double-edged sword, right?The barriers to entry was so significant.

And once we got someone through and started driving, they weren't incredibly sticky. But to get them to that point was absurdly hard. You can specifically to talk about tooling. What did we develop for ride sharemarkets, the P2P markets, bunch of tooling. What did we develop the New York?

Very little like I, until. I left at the end of 2018, we was still, we were still pairing our funnel with a cool dependency on Google Sheets.

Derrick: [00:12:52] How big is this Google Sheets?

Adam: [00:12:55] Big. So when we say so like our, just give you like a little example.  The onboarding process was a 12 or 13 step process. Between deciding you want to drive with Uber getting that driver's license, that commercial driver's license and commercial vehicle, which is also licensed.

And like within that, you'd have to get a drug test. You would have to get fingerprinted. You would have to take a medical exam. No, it's the chair at the case, take a wheelchair training course. You'd have to pass a test. That's just to get your own license. And then you would have to get your car inspected, get it registered with commercial plates, commercial insurance.

So all of these things were happening, partly at a city level, partly with third parties, partly with our internal data. And we were trying to reconcile all of that. And initially we didn't even have the ability to write to the Uber database. So we, this is like the traditional ops hack.

We figured out how to write to the Uber database without writing to the database because we had no engineering support. There was this tool on a driver profile where you could leave a note. And it was a note so that the next person who did a driver interaction could follow up, spoke to driver in March and So as he was going to, get back to about not cussing our customers, for example, that kind of and we turned that into a very organized and regimented maiming, convection and structure, where we would say, Date the school office visit no TLC license, I'm the school defensive driving 'em to school whatever.

And then we would query that in sequel and then turn that into the funnel. And then pair that with a Google sheet where we would have like a bunch of V lookups and index matches on phone numbers. That would pay with the dealership. They have their own database or the repair with a taxi and limousine commission wouldn't collect for the number.

So we have to use license plate information. So it was just like super janky.

Derrick: [00:14:49] Interesting. And then the reason why there were, there was no internal tooling for the New York city. Mark. It was simply because the New York city market, instead of it being to a PDP was more commercial.

Was that the only reason?

Adam: [00:15:01] Yeah, pretty much. It was like, this was the only commercial market in the us.It was also like. We were like holding our own without the need for that tooling as well. We were growing amazingly. Like we figured out how to operationalize it without the product support and don't get me wrong.

We moved to a world where we got a lot more product support, but that really only started happening in the later years. So the first couple of years it was really like, dental floss in tooth bags it was called putting everything together.

Derrick: [00:15:29] And then earlier you were talking about how very early on Uber in New York basically had these two legs of growth for supply, right?

First, gone after the commercial drivers. And how long did that take to basically tap out of the commercial, the existing commercial drivers supply.

Adam: [00:15:45] We were done with that. There was always some left, but we really started to see diminishing returns by the end of 2015.

Derrick: [00:15:55] How big was the New York city team at that point?

Adam: [00:15:58] Yeah.Can't really remember probably about 30 people at that point.

Derrick: [00:16:05] Yeah. And then from that point onwards, you guys were going after people who are not yet commercial drivers and helping them become commercial drivers and then eventually an Uber driver.

Adam: [00:16:17] Yeah, exactly.  I saw it as it was like the triple Whopper.

There was the there was a taxi drivers who we still needed to convince the drive with you, but.  And then, the livery and black car drivers. So people who already have a commercial license, we need to convince them to drive with her. But then people who don't have a commercial license fell into two categories for me, they were the people who knew they wanted to drive with Uber and needed to be convinced to get that crazy license.

And then there were people who. We're getting that crazy license already and needed convincing to drive with Aruba. So we hang out, had a three-prong strategy where we will try and approach pools, three of those different pillars, trying to,

Derrick: [00:16:57] And so for the last two pillars, it sounded like the process was 11 or 12steps.

Adam: [00:17:02] Yeah. So it could be accomplished in any order. Yeah, it was a 12 steps on all that could be accomplished in any order. And some of which had to be done at the time and limousine commission headquarters. And some of the things that had to be done at the TLC were being recorded in New York city, beta via a CSV that sometimes that CSV wouldn't get on beta for a week or two, I think because there was just like a person who would forget to do it or go on vacation or something.

And some of the data wasn't even being captured. Digitally at all by TLC, then there was stuff that we were capturing ourselves. But, through tools that were built for P2P ride sharing and not built for commercials. So we have to bend them to our purposes. And then there were events that were happening entirely outside of our visibility that were happening at defensive driving schools that were happening at car dealerships that were happening at the DMV, which was, a state thing rather than a safety thing.

So like figuring out how to get insight into all of those. I'm figuring out how to turn those sort of like real world physical interactions into actually like a recordable database action was a big part of how we were visualizing a power.

Derrick: [00:18:22] There's a lot to dig in there. So this 11 or 12 step process happens over maybe six months and.

These 11 steps might have 10 different parties involved, whether it's the DMV or the drug test place or Uber itself and each place, they probably don't have a database or an API that you can call. So they probably be sent you a CSV. And so you just have to match up these. These 12 CSVs together almost to figure out where Derek is.

And Derek is tracked maybe by a cell phone number as society where Derek is in the funnel.

Adam: [00:18:58] Yes, exactly. And then it just gets more fun than that even because the TLC doesn't give out cell phone information. Cause there's PII. Of course. And then, the, we have HIPAA compliance for the medical exams.

It's not like there's one common identifying string through all of it. So we have to develop a hierarchy, whereas which piece of PII do we feel most competent in in each piece of the funnel depending on the partner we're working with and then how do we reconcile those and deal with all of the data inconsistency?

So basically this was the unfortunate job for a long time of the newest member of the team who would have the task of updating this. Several hundred thousand RO and cell file on a Sunday. And we had to do in Excel because Google Sheets wasn't powerful enough at the time. Eventually we started working with engineering and, started piping data and creating new data tables.

But for a long time, it was like, it was just a guy on a Mac per desk.

Derrick: [00:19:59] I don't think Mac book airs are powerful enough to do that anymore.

Adam: [00:20:04] Yeah.

Derrick: [00:20:05] So eventually you said Uber started to Uber HQ perhaps started to develop some internal tools for the New York city market as well. What are those internal tools look like and how are they differentiated from what you were using before?

Adam: [00:20:20] Yeah I I see the role as of any good operator to be, make themselves redundant.Like I, I think of it as this continuum between You can get operationalized, then you automate and then you productize. So we got to the point where we'd done pretty much everything we could in the operationalizing and automation side of things, and we really need a product support to do things.

So I work pretty closely with The various different product teams in San Francisco, which is where most of those teams were based to buildout specific tools for licensed markets. And we went in the only licensed market. We were the only one in the U S London was a huge market.

Paris was a huge market. Singapore was a huge market at the time. So we were trying to abstract and build out tools that would work for all of these. So a good example is. Like for licensed market, because the processes of getting on the road is so involved, sign up is actually not a very important metric for us.

Like a sign up is useless because there's so little intent, post sign up. That really, what we wanted to do was get people into the office.A way of doing that is by bypassing the digital sign up experience entirely, but that's not ideal. So we created a product whereby instead of getting people to fill out a bunch of information off to sign up, we would get them to schedule an in-person appointment at one of our drivers centers.

That started off paths. We use a third party tool called Acuity which was a scheduling tool, which, my, uh, Uh, but he uses,  but it definitely wasn't intended for the scout who was using it. And then, we built an internal tool to do that, so that, that would be logged in the database so that we could start reconciling this data more easily so that it'd be, could become pop.

And there was several different examples of tooling that we created.

Derrick: [00:22:10] Did you ever build an internal tool going back to the licensed use case? So you said drivers have to show up to the office physically and fill out paperwork.And then that paperwork has to go to the commercial governing body of New York City.

Why can't that be digitized or automated where maybe the driver fills it out online and then whether it's a human being or some sort of a just writes it down.

Adam: [00:22:33] That's exactly what we started doing. That's right. We turned that paper, the process into a digital process where we were sending those things across to the taxi and limousine commission.

And, they were keen on doing this too. The city of New York to the massive credit, has always wanted to have open data. And that's a data.And so they started moving towards that model and we were able to really streamline our process and streamline beds by doing that.

Derrick: [00:22:59] Did you ever feel like the KPIs for, Oh, I'm not first off, I'm not sure what the KPIs are measuring worse. I'd be curious and learning more about that. Did you ever feel like the KPIs changed while you were running growth for UberNortheast? In the sense of it seemed like early on. Maybe the KPI was less about commercial and much more just about figuring out where people are dropping off so you can design that perfect system.

And then eventually once the system was figured out, maybe then the KPI was to. To ensure that X number of people got through or people didn't drop off at certain points. Is that a correct way to think of it?

Adam: [00:23:34] Yeah, I think so. I think what I would say is that it was it was growth at all costs for awhile.

And then, through very different areas of our business, some of which were more catastrophic than others, as a company, we figured out that some of the costs of growth are too high. So I think the early days of Uber, we were obsessed with drive with those strips. Like how many drivers take the first trip every single week.

That's great. If you create, let me back out. I there's a mentor of mine who wrote an HBS article called don't let big data cloud your brand. Something to that effect. And I felt that we were doing that for awhile.We got so obsessed with those weekly KPIs of like how many drivers, how many new drivers.

And we were just like incentivizing the wrong sorts of behavior. We're incentivizing people to like onboard quickly and then churn.Rather than onboard and develop the right sort of driver habits that we wanted to see. So we went from driver first strips to thinking about drive LTV, thinking about more healthy metrics.

Thinking about okay, what is every driver supply hour equal?Like having a driver who's sitting in the middle of Staten Island at 4:00 AM on a Tuesday. Is less useful for us than a driver. Who's going to be in Midtown of5:00 PM. So it creating control to the right hand and left hand.

We're doing the right things, re structures whereby we were onboarding more efficiently. And the supply hours being created by those new drivers was being deployed efficiently towards the goals of helping people move around the city foster more affordably.

Derrick: [00:25:10] At the very start of our show?

You talked about what operations means that Uber experience, what does operations mean to you in general?

Adam: [00:25:17] Now it's a great question. I think, operations is one of those casual terms that you see, sometimes operations is customer service. Sometimes it's there's ops to me, ultimately, operations is.

It's the fabric that sits between vision and execution.Yeah, people talk about the what and the why you know, of a business. And tome, operations is the, how, it's the way you actually do the thing you set out to do as a business. How do you turn your vision into an actual strategy and how do you create clear, organized structures and processes to accomplish that strategy?

Ensure that vision becomes reality. I think, everything between that vision and mission and the tactics to me, that's operations. It's, it's the strategy of the supposed division is the structure of the strippable, it's the strategy. It's the OKR and support that structure. It's the processes and support of your chaos.

It's all of that. The glue, the oil, whatever analogy you want to use, it's that it's the connective tissue that takes ideas. And gives them shape and substance and ultimately results because as a business  you're in the results game.

Derrick: [00:26:31] That's well put  two questions  really quickly go back to internal tools or our software at Uber.

When a process changed, especially less, I had gone back to how do you get a person who's not a commercial driver through the funnel to become a commercial driver. That process let's say it was 12 steps, but maybe very early on, it was 15 steps or maybe in the middle of the process.

It was actually 18 steps as processes changed. How did you.Keep the team up today, because with software, you can update that automatically.But with processes involving humans, there's, there might be a gap or certain people might not research and things.

Adam: [00:27:07] Yeah. Yeah. I think that's right. I'm going to say to me process is incredibly important and then you can't claim to be an operator and not believe the process is important, but you, to your point, you cannot have the process for everything.

Especially in a young company, when, you're often entering on chop the territory every other day, it's impossible to see around all of the corners and make sure that you have an incredibly detailed process about around apps and everything. So I think. Where process fails. You have to pull back on principle.

And I think that's where communication and clarity becomes.So important. So our principal and everyone knew this, we use the Uber example was. The licensing process is a complicated mess and we need to make it as simple, inexpensive, and painless as possible for drivers.

That was our principle and that's what guided the way we executed and guided the processes we built whether we were creating new processes, changing existing ones, abandoning ones, or doubling down. So I think. Starting from those principles and building processes that back those principles is key because I think process needs to be an enabler of your goals and not a disabler.

And I think this is the Cardinal sin of bad operations is that people build poor tools and poor processes. And people get so obsessed with the, how. So they forgot the why. And I think, not to plug macro, but I think, one of the things I think was so interesting about what you guys are building is that you do the how and you are creating tools to allow that to be easy and simple so that people don't need to obsess of how to build a perfect process.

I like this is maybe a domino, but I'm going to use it anyway. It's like studying for finals in college. I had a friend in college who was like totally obsessed with finals and he would come up with these beautiful, incredibly detailed, super well organized study timetables. These were meticulous.

What time is going to get up 20 minutes for breakfast, 90minutes studying this. 40 minute exercise break, run around the campus.Everything was planned, but he goes so obsessed with the planning and the kind of revising and iterating and like just obsessing over his schedule that he forgot to actually do the studying piece.

I see this all the time. In businesses, people who get so obsessed with the metal work with the minutia and the process. So they forget to do the actual work that moves the business forward. And I think that operations can become very inward-looking and you need to keep looking outwards.

Otherwise he just collapsed under the weight of your own sort of, navel gazing, introspection. And I think like tooling is what sets you free.

Derrick: [00:29:58]Talking about macro. If Macro were available back in 2013, when you joinedUber, what were some of the use cases for Macro at Uber

Adam: [00:30:06] I think it would have been an amazing way to operationalize the onboarding process without having to like laminate pieces of paper and put them on everyone's desk every week, which is literally what we did.

To your point about process changing all the time and keeping people up to date, like you want to be able to create a workflow that takes a lot of the. Thinking out of that so that you can actually focus the thinking on doing things that are going to help the people you're interacting with.

Like for us, it was like, the customer service piece was super, super important, but if you're constantly referring down to a sheet and stock and not understanding where you are on what this particular drive needs, then. You're not really helping them to the best of your ability.

So I think a tool like Macro to take that sort of like decision tree process take away the need to think about that so that someone can actually concentrate on thinking about like how to actually do something impactful.

Derrick: [00:31:02] Yeah, we wish it were available back in 2013.

Adam: [00:31:04] I have probably gone home a lot earlier.

Derrick: [00:31:09]I'm sorry. So some fun questions to close things out for people who are currently considering a career in ops. What advice do you have for them?

Adam: [00:31:17] Ooh it's a good question. Do it is great. I think is number one. I think people get hung up on, on what kind of operations they're doing.

And I think I think I would encourage people not to do that.I think ultimately. What operations does, as I mentioned before, it's enable and it allows you to really get a broad overview of so many different parts of the business. And I think to me, I'm basically, I love I'm a failed teacher.

I've failed journalist, I've failed teacher. So to meThere's no better breeding ground for business than operations. So it allows you to have insight into product insight, into marketing insight, into, FP and a, into all of the different facets of the business and see how they actually coalesced.

And I think in, in a lot of startups, especially ones that aren't purely digital products and digital players, like it is the. It's the most sense of disciplinary thing you can do. And it is the glue that holds the thing together. And I think that's also true for more mature businesses that are increasingly matrix is being able to understand the component pieces of a problem, understand the component dependencies and break them down.

Lay the track, clear the obstacles, whatever metaphor you want to use that to me is what operations is it's problem solving at the end of the day. So I'm very biased, but I don't think there's a better way to cut your teeth than in an ops role.

Derrick: [00:32:46] Great.  And also for people who have more questions about operations, or just want to talk to you and learn more about your story, is there a way people can reach you online?

Adam: [00:32:56] Yes.I'm not good at Twitter. I have a Twitter, but I mostly just. Tweet angry things when also lose a football game, which happens increasingly. So I would recommend people just reach out to me on LinkedIn.

Derrick: [00:33:14] Great. And we'll also have that link in the show notes as well.

Adam: [00:33:17] Great.

Derrick: [00:33:18] Awesome. Adam, thank you so much for your time and for sharing the stories. We really appreciate it.

Adam: [00:33:23] Thank you. Thanks so much for having me on. It's been a pleasure.